It seems that, these days, the West is
very interested in the movement that you call ďreligious
Is that right?
Yes, thatís right.
But, unfortunately, the Westís interest in the question
of Islam and religious modernism doesnít have a very good
origin. Its starting
place is one that we donít like: the Talibanís movement.
What I mean to say is that the Westís identity came up
against a new identity, which consists of the Talibanís militant
Today, the world of Islam
is going through a strange period.
And, any way you look at it, the Iranian revolution
played a role and is still playing a role in the situation that
has come about. Iím
not saying that we should blame the revolution for everything
thatís bad and ruinous;
what Iím saying is that, without a doubt, the Iranian
revolution gave Muslims a sense of identity and the courage to
express their identity.
In fact, any revolution is a revolution in identity.
That is to say, a people discards its former identity and
acquires a new one.
But the regrettable part is that the expression of identity is
done via militancy.
It is like someone who wants to display his personality to
others, but he doesnít display his erudition, because he has no
doesnít display his wealth, because he has no wealth.
He doesnít display his virtue, because he has none.
He just shows his brute force, because thatís all he has.
Iím not saying that the world of Islam has no erudition;
that it has no virtue.
But what the world saw in the Taliban movement was just
this brute force; i.e., what we call violence.
Unfortunately, this brute force has drawn attention to
the world of Islam today.
Be that as it may, we have to use this opportunity to
show the Western world that Islam is not just an identity; it is
Islam doesnít just have violence, it has a history, a history in
which virtue, too, has been cultivated.
You mean it has both sides -
Yes, it has both sides.
All religions have had both these sides.
You read in the Qurían that when water descends from the
skies and flows in rivers, a great deal of froth sits on the
civilizations have pure water flowing underneath, with a great
deal of froth on the surface.
Seeing the froth alone is not wisdom;
you have to see the water too.
And the froth has to be removed as much as possible so
that people can swim in translucent water.
Your situation is complicated and
On the one hand, you have to tell
Westerners that Islam is not just froth;
it is water too.
On the other hand, you have to speak
about water to people who are ďfrothĒ themselves. And thereís
quite a few of them.
It is exactly as you say.
That is to say, it is more difficult explaining this
point to Muslims who disagree with me, because they think that
they know everything.
The think that this is their own terrain and that others
are trying to rob them of this terrain.
So they show more resistance.
Be that as it may, we have to do something.
And I believe that religious intellectualism can be a new
voice in the midst of all this.
This new voice has become strong now and is attracting
the worldís attention.
And fair-minded people have accepted that thereís another
kind of Muslim too.
This is enough to spread an atmosphere of understanding and
engagement, and, in Mr Khatamiís words, a dialogue of
What do people like you want to achieve
by presenting this kind of thinking?
Whatís your aim in depicting this image
Look, we canít take religion away from our society;
nor do we wish to do so.
It is our identity.
It is our culture.
It is our belief, our aspiration.
Of course, when the majority of people in a society come
to the conclusion that they want to set religion aside, thatís
another matter. But
weíre not talking in that kind of environment now.
Weíre talking in an environment in which a revolution has
occurred in the name of religion.
And people have shown that, despite their differences,
they are deeply attached to this creed.
But this creed is that same frothy water that must be
purified. And this
purification is a difficult task, which we must undertake.
And thereís a great deal of froth sitting on the water.
Itís not something that one can hope to sweep away in one
day or in one year.
This is froth that is, on occasion, considered to be the same as
people say that the truth is nothing but this froth.
Separating the two things and distinguishing between them
is very difficult.
We want to do this.
So, religious modernism or religious intellectualism is trying
to explain that peoples, in each historical era, have
constructed forms or depictions of religion.
Religion is never standing nearby for people to go and
discover it. In
fact, weíve been constantly reconstructing it.
Today, too, we have to reconstruct it.
Just as we constructed philosophy.
Just as we constructed mysticism. Religion, too, has to
Because it has blessings and benefits.
If it didnít have blessings and benefits, we wouldnít do
this. At least
thatís how it seems to a religious person like myself.
If I didnít believe that the good aspects of religion
outweigh the bad aspects, I wouldnít be a follower.
Iím not saying that religion is blight-free;
Thereís nothing in this world thatís blight-free.
Not philosophy. Not
art. And not human
beings. Have human
beings not caused untold misery and misfortune in the world?
But we still havenít lost hope in humanity.
We still believe that, on the whole, whatís good about
human beings outweighs whatís bad about them.
But, if weíve really lost hope, then, we have to hope
that a couple of atom bombs will sort everything and everyone
A good phrase by
Rabindranath Tagore, the great Indian poet, comes to mind here.
He said: So
long as a child is born, it shows that God hasnít lost hope in
humanity. Now, if I
were to view the world from Godís perspective, Iíd say that we
still havenít lost hope in humanity.
Nor have we lost hope in religiosity.
I still believe that religious people are behind many
endearing manifestations of humanity.
If you look at all the charity work that is done in the
name of religion, youíll see that thereís still no shortage of
this kind of thing.
Iím living in the United States
where there are very many religious people who do good works.
The women who work as nurses in leper colonies are still
Christian nuns and they do what they do because of their
There are still good and pious souls in the world.
You can find hundreds of examples of this kind of moral
conduct. Of course
very dangerous things have also been done and are being done in
the name of religion.
I have a friend who says that religion
is like a personal psychiatrist for her.
Others go to see a psychiatrist, I seek
refuge in my religion, she says.
In fact, itís impossible to live without
believing in something.
But thereís a difference between
religion as blessings and good deeds, which form the bases of an
individualís life, and religion as a political term which some
people exploit -
Look, Iím totally aware of the fact that religion isnít
blight-free. But I
believe that all the potential and actual dangers that exist in
religion also exist in all other political systems, but in their
own way. What I mean
to say is that secularism has caused its own share of ruin.
See for yourself: World War I and World War II were
instigated by secular, not religious, people.
And the number of people killed in these two wars
equalled the number of people killed in all the other wars
Many of the worldís dictatorships have been non-religious.
The difference is that when people speak
from the position of God it is very dangerous.
Here, they say:
Youíre a communist, youíre subversive.
But they donít incite the masses against
you by saying that God has authorized the shedding of your
Speaking from a secular position is not
But when they say,
Youíve acted against God, then, you
really tremble in your boots because theyíre setting both the
masses and the state against you.
Stalinist Russia, too, if they said that you were anti-communist
or anti-the people, then, youíd be given a one-way ticket to
What Iím saying is that the human beings come first in all these
the famous Spanish philosopher, said in his very tender and
profound book entitled The Tragic Sense of Life:
ďGod doesnít seek out virtuous human beings; virtuous
human beings seek out God.Ē
In other words, the goodness starts on this side.
But, since they see God as the epitome and creator of all
goodness, they are drawn to Him.
What Iím trying to say is that virtue in human beings
Wickedness, too, precedes religiosity.
But religion increases a good human beingís goodness and
it increases a bad human beingís badness.
This is an important point.
It is like wine.
I have sometimes used this analogy.
Religion is like wine.
Rumi said that wine makes wise people wiser and ignorant
people, more ignorant.
In other words, wine strips a human being bare.
If heís wise, his wisdom becomes more visible.
And if heís wicked, his wickedness becomes more visible.
This is an important idea that is corroborated by science
too. Nowadays, we
know more or less what alcohol does to the brain.
It tears away the cover that we draw over our nakedness
in society and it reveals our true self.
In vino veritas?
arts do this too to some extent.
Now, let me also tell you this: Some sages are of the
view that a woman does this to a man.
She strips him bare; makes him be himself.
Power seems to do this too.
Power does this too, but I think that power tends to
expose vices more than virtues.
Now, what Iím saying is that religion is the same.
It makes a good person better and a bad person worse.
A bad person finds the most vicious weapon in religion in
order to commit the worst vices in the name of religion; to
kill, to torture, to tyrannize, in the name of God.
And a good person does all thatís good and beautiful for
the sake of God. The
most beautiful works of art over the course of history have
appeared in places of worship.
That is to say, an unending love has been bestowed on
God. Every brick
that theyíve laid, theyíve laid with love.
Theyíve built the places of worship to the tune of
religious music and songs.
The same goes for Indian temples.
The same goes for mosques.
In other words, human beings love to bestow their best on
their object of worship.
So, religion, too, strips us bare;
like wine, like a woman.
Of course, Iím using these analogies in the hope that
believers wonít be offended.
Thereís wine in heaven after all.
That is to say, in the appropriate place, wine plays a
good role. I
explained this point once.
Someone asked me why thereís wine in heaven, whereas itís
forbidden here. I
said, the answer lies in what you said.
It is because there are only good people in heaven (by
definition), so, wine will expose their goodness.
But since this world contains both good and bad people,
wine has been forbidden by God.
So the good ones have to suffer because
of a handful of bad ones!
Yes, the good have always suffered because of the bad.
Youíll never find an instance of a good person torturing
a bad person. It is
always bad people who torture good people.
At any rate, the point is that, in the hands of good
people, religiosity can be the best means for bringing to
fruition all the goodness that they know.
We wash ourselves with
water, but water has to be kept clean too.
We wash ourselves with religion, but we have to keep
religion clean too.
Religion can become soiled and, once it does, it can soil an
Even if good people come to power, in
view of powerís effects and exigencies, they, too, can become
bad people after a while.
They can turn into power-hungry people
who can - in the name of religion - rob society of the
possibility of cleansing religion.
So, the question is this:
Can the arena of power be a place for
truly religious people?
Look, the point youíre making raises the following
question: Can we
deprive religious people of the right to enter the arena of
power and politics?
Take me, as a religious person.
Does anyone have the right to tell me that I donít have
the right to come power in a democratic system or in a struggle
against a dictatorial system?
The important thing is to judge me by my actions.
Believing in any creed or religion shouldnít bar anyone
from coming to power.
No, but youíre talking about a
Thatís right, power shouldnít be dictatorial.
No one should derive the legitimacy of their power from
What should they derive it from?
From the people and from policies that are based on
justice. But no one
should be deprived of a right simply because they believe in
something. At any
rate, peopleís power should be delimited by the law.
Should this law be intertwined with
religion, as it is in
The law must be a law that fulfils two conditions:
First, it must be acceptable to and respected by the
people. Secondly, it
must not violate human rights.
Of course, we donít say that the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights is cast in stone.
It is a human construct, after all, and it can be
amended. Some things
may be subtracted from it or added to it.
But I believe that if, on the whole, these two conditions
are fulfilled, whoever comes to power can have a humane and
But then it would just be a democratic
It would be scientific and moral management.
How do you feel today when you hear the
expression ďIslamic stateĒ?
If what is meant by an Islamic state is that faqihs
[Islamic jurists/clerics] should rule, then I think that it
would be the most immoral form of government in the world,
because a government of faqihs would consider it not only a
right to be dictatorial, but a duty.
And this is the most dangerous and brutal form of
Khaldun, too, was opposed to a government of faqihs.
But if what is meant by an Islamic state is a government
of people who respect Islamic values, I think thereís nothing
wrong with this. I would call it management.
Unfortunately, weíve put
things the wrong way round in Iran.
The misfortune in our country was that they viewed Islam
through the porthole of fiqh [Islamic jurisprudence] and they
viewed fiqh through the porthole of penal laws.
In other words, two upside down notions came to rule over
us. Whereas, first,
Islam isnít limited to fiqh.
And, secondly, fiqh isnít limited to penal laws.
You canít find a better example of putting things the
wrong way round than this:
We say we want to have an Islamic state; then, we make
fiqh rule over us; and, then, we start cutting off peopleís
hands and legs, stoning people and so on.
This is what happened in
This is how the Taliban interpreted an Islamic state too.
And this is the impression that the world has been left
But if what we mean by a
religious state is that people should be left free to have their
religious experiences, i.e., that there should be a pleasing
environment in which I can have religious experiences and
establish a free and pleasing link with God and lead an
autonomous, moral life, I consider this to be the best
environment. And I
believe that a religious state must, in the first instance,
bring about an environment of this kind for believers, not to
cut off hands and legs and gouge peopleís eyes out and to view
this as the stateís purpose.
Now, there are some people who say that,
as it happens, the Taliban were more sincere in what they did.
They believed in something and they
tried to implement it.
Whereas the Islamic Republic of Iran has
not insisted on what it professes to believe in.
What sort of belief in an Islamic state
is it that goes up and down with various political waves?
And how is it that some things that are
prohibited to enemies are not-prohibited to insiders?
Is it possible to have conflicting
rulings on a single issue relating to faith?
Can faqihs who are themselves embroiled
in economic and political wheeling and dealing, speak of a state
run by faqihs?
Look, let me say very frankly that some of our faqihs are
no better than the Taliban.
But the service that religious modernism or religious
intellectualism rendered to
was that it made these faqihs ashamed of expressing and
implementing their views openly.
In other words, it didnít allow them to practise their
harsh, Taliban-like version of fiqh.
I think that what is absent among the Taliban is
That is to say, they donít have religious intellectuals
in their society.
Hence, the Taliban distribute and impose the only ideology that
exists there. But,
it wasnít that the faqihs - of course, I donít mean all the
faqihs - didnít want to impose a similar situation on our
society; but they couldnít.
A big segment of society rose up against them and robbed
them of the courage to do so.
They didnít manage to impose their narrow-minded
you can be certain that we would see more examples of Talibanism
You saw how, in his Friday prayer sermons, a faqih, who
was the Speaker of the Assembly of Experts, issued a death
sentence on Mr Aghajari because of what heíd said at the University of Hamadan.
Even if the sentence had been issued by a court, we would
have found it lamentable; so much the more so when it occurs in
Friday prayer sermons. What else can you call this but
Talibanism? But this
Talibanism didnít succeed because there were people who stood up
For the Taliban, it makes no different
whether youíre one of them or not.
If you do something thatís forbidden by
religion, theyíll sentence you to death or to having your hand
But in the Islamic Republic of Iran, if
you say something, you get the death sentence, but if Mr Hossein
Shariatmadari says the exact same thing, no one can look askance
Is this what a government of faqihs
Look, here we have to go back to the identity of clerics
as a profession.
When I wrote my article entitled ďLiberty
and the ClergyĒ, one of the senior clerics in
Qom, whom I will not name now, told me
very openly and frankly:
Donít say things like that in public; come and tell us in
private. He told me
this just as clearly as Iím telling you.
So, letís now analyse what this statement means.
It means that a profession (the clergy) wants to remain
closed and mysterious.
The people must not be privy to its secrets.
The people must not begin to feel that they can criticize
them. Let me tell
you a very revealing story.
There was a woman, in the time of Muíawiya, who boldly
stood up to him and said what she wanted to say.
Muíawiya, who was a clever man, realized that there was
nothing to be gained from punishing the woman and killing her.
So, he let her speak, but he was seething inside.
Then, he said in an insulting way:
Curses upon Ali for making people like you feel that you
can criticize the state.
Now, our rulers donít want
the people to feel that they can criticize clerics.
Of course, despite their efforts, the people have started
This is what they donít want.
They ban newspapers.
They ban public talks.
They canít tolerate the slightest criticism.
This is the politics of Muíawiya and we must recognize
this. Now, let me
return to what I was saying, which is that, one of the things
that religious intellectuals did was to make the people feel
that they can criticize the state.
And this is a cardinal sin that cannot be forgiven.
But, in Rumiís words, ďthis is a fault thatís better than
a thousand good deedsĒ.
And it seems that only religious
modernists, i.e., people who are rooted in religion themselves
and know the stateís language, could have made the people feel
that they can criticize the Islamic state.
state knows this too.
If there is a group of people who can make the people
feel that they can criticize the state, it is religious
modernists, and they also paid they price for it.
Of course, itís a matter of religious pride too.
When I see that some people have set up an unjust state
in the name of religion, I canít help but speak out.
Now, letís turn to the election, which
can be an instance of Alis standing up to Muíawiyas.
Whatís your view on the forthcoming
Look, in Iran, I was faced with friends who
believe that people shouldnít take part in the election.
I really wasnít convinced by their arguments.
I know what theyíre saying and from what perspective
theyíre looking at things.
Their perspective is that elections are, at any rate,
something thatís organized by the state and taking part in the
game ultimately benefits the ruling system.
It legitimizes the ruling system.
Yes, but when I asked them, what should we do instead,
they had no answer.
I guess there would have to be a revolution. What other
option would there be? Subversive activities. At this point, I
told them the story of the man who had dug a well and didnít
know where to put the dug-up soil.
The village headman told him:
Dig another well and put this soil into it.
Well, the rest of the story is obvious.
He would be digging wells for the rest of his life;
throwing the soil from the first into the second, throwing the
soil from the second into the third, etc.
I told my friends:
We already had a revolution and we dug up a lot of soil
from societyís well.
Now, weíre wondering where to put the soil.
Dig another well.
But, then, the same question would come up again.
Where would we throw the soil from the second well?
We canít spend our lives digging wells.
Of course they say that this business of
digging wells may not quench the people's thirst, but it may
line some individuals' pockets.
But there is a worse scenario too.
It may happen that no one's thirst is quenched and no
one's pocket is lined, but everyone is destroyed in the well.
We canít keep digging wells.
The fact of the matter is that we must enter the existing
game and we must keep strengthening it until it produces real
results. At first,
it may produce mediocre results, but, God willing, it will
That is to say, the results will eventually become relatively
results donít exist anywhere.
The ideal form of democracy doesnít exist anywhere.
We mustnít look for totally pure and unadulterated things
in this world. This
is why, while I was in Iran and also
among Iranians abroad, I noticed that calls for a boycott have
become less frequent or have disappeared altogether.
Even many of the individuals who were the biggest
proponents of a boycott were beginning to say that they wouldnít
be voting themselves but that they would be calling on other
people not to vote.
This is one step forward at any rate.
Be that as it may, people are free to vote for whoever
they like. But I
believe that the election game is the game of democracy.
And democracy is always weak at first and gradually
And people mustnít expect full democracy from the word go.
This is why I respect the people who are active in this
arena now and I believe that what theyíre doing is laudable;
whether the candidates themselves or the people who are
campaigning for them and are hoping that their candidate will
Of course Iím not
suggesting that all candidates are equal.
No, theyíre not.
I hope, from the bottom of my heart, that Mr Ahmadinejad
will not be president for another term.
A year and a half ago, when I was taking part in a
seminar at George
University, I answered a question by
Ahmadinejad cannot be and must not be president again.
Many other people have come to this conclusion too.
And I hope that this is how things turn out.
He has shamed Iran
enough. He has told
the people enough lies.
He has fostered enough superstitious and inane ideas.
He has dug up enough money from the oil wells and thrown
it into the wells of Jamkaran.
He has caused enough grief.
In order to bring this about, tell us
which candidate you favour.
I told you something in the last presidential election;
Iím more or less of the same view now.
You mean Mr Karrubi?
Yes, especially so because I donít find anything new in
the things that Mr Musavi is saying.
And I donít find anything attractive in his record
either. I believe
that he hasnít bid farewell to his former ideas.
And although he sometimes raises some new points in his
speeches, his views are fundamentally what they were before.
And there are worrying intimations in his speeches.
In practice, too, he sat back over the past 20 years,
watched the injustice and didnít say anything.
So, why did Mr Khatami back him?
This is whatís baffling about Mr Khatamiís stance in my
view. And I really
donít understand why some of my friends are backing Musavi.
I mean, when I look at it from the perspective of
politics, I find it really inexplicable.
Let me put it frankly, I really donít like to see someone
claim, for a second time, from a political position, that he has
an intellectual mission.
We need a man of action.
But the problem is that some people
believe that it wonít make any difference even if it is Mr
Karrubi who wins.
It depends on what you expect from the president in
What I expect is that we should have a somewhat freer
atmosphere so that thinkers and reformers can do some work at
the level of civil society.
Somewhat more press freedom.
Somewhat more freedom for the people, so that the shadow
of fear isnít hanging over them.
A cleaner judiciary.
For example, I havenít heard Mr Musavi display any
sensitivity in his slogans on the question of the judiciary.
Whereas the beating heart of democracy and justice - even
if we donít mention democracy, we can speak of justice - is the
judiciary. We have a judiciary which, as we all know, is tainted
with various types of corruption.
If the courage and the will to bring about a cleaner
judiciary doesnít exist, the other bodies canít do anything.
But appointing the head of the judiciary
is not in the presidentís powers.
But the president must have the courage to talk about it.
I want to use this opportunity to say to Mr Karrubi - or
even Mr Musavi, it makes no difference: If you come to power,
bear this suggestion in mind.
We have three branches of power in the Constitution.
The legislature, the executive and the judiciary.
The executive is elected by the people.
The people elect the president.
And the members of parliament are elected by the people
too. But the head of
the judiciary is appointed.
My suggestion is that [the head of] this branch of power
too should be elected.
I believe that this would solve many of the problems of
our judiciary and it would break absolutist rule in our country.
The judiciary must be truly
independent of the other powers.
If the top, ruling cleric appoints the president, if he
appoints parliament, it wonít be a major problem. But if the
judiciary isnít independent, we will truly not have justice and
everything will be destroyed.
Mr Karrubi has said that he
wants to bring about changes in the Constitution.
I am suggesting to him that he should have this change in
mind. Mr Musavi has
said that he wants to bring about some reforms.
My suggestion to him is that he should carry out this
This is also my proposal to all intellectuals.
I hope that in this way, we will have a Constitution
thatís different from all the other Constitutions in the world.
And, in a way, weíll show the world what justice means.
Iím certain that, by
reforming the judiciary, weíll be able to have a true democracy
or true rule by the people. I
really hope that whoever comes to power fosters justice; whether
it is Mr Musavi or Mr Karrubi or Mr Ahmadinejad.
And I advise Mr Ahmadinejad to implement the promise of
justice that he made at the start of his presidency.
And he should consult others too so that he can learn
what justice means in the modern world.
Let him also bear in mind the words attributed to the
Prophet: A single
day of governing over Muslims equals 60 years of worship, but
only if it is a government of justice.
And, finally, let me ask you a question
about something that youíd said to me before.
You said that the form of government
that you favour is a liberal democracy.
Are you still of the same view?
And, if so, what would religionís place
be within it?
Look, liberalism means a system in which rights take
precedence over duties.
Liberalism mustnít be interpreted as libertinism.
Liberalism means the paradigm of rights as opposed to the
paradigm of duties.
Liberal democracy means a system that is based on peopleís
rights, and democracy has been chosen as the method of
governing. One of
the peopleís rights is religiosity.
So, in a liberal democracy, the right to religiosity is
fully respected. Iím
opposed to militant secularism, which extends secularism to the
point where it makes life difficult for religiosity and
Two years ago, I gave a talk here, in Paris, in which I said
that secularism has become intolerant and it is starting to
develop the fault that it attributes to religion.
This has to be amended.
Religiosity as a right is totally respected in a liberal
people have to be able to practise their values.
**Translated from the Persian by Nilou Mobasser
* Published in
Roozonline on 10 May 2009.